Hey look guys it’s the one true leftist
Damn, I’m the only one who believes genocide is bad? That’s a crying fucking shame. As if the world didn’t give me enough reasons to be depressed.
Honestly the word gets thrown around so much that it’s lost its power, especially when it’s not backed up by anything other than ‘i know they’re doing genocide because I already dislike the people I’m accusing!’
It’s not something people seem serious about, you’d think if actual genocide was happening in China people would want to share the evidence and it’d be a big thing and stuff but it’s apparently been over a decade of industrial scale murder and no one has anything substantial or tangible to prove it, just ‘trust me bro, my sworn ideological enemies are super bad in secret!’
Don’t you think? I mean off the top of your head name the three bits of evidence that actually convinced you china is committing genocide- you can even cheat and Google
It’s not something people seem serious about, you’d think if actual genocide was happening in China people would want to share the evidence and it’d be a big thing and stuff but it’s apparently been over a decade of industrial scale murder and no one has anything substantial or tangible to prove it, just ‘trust me bro, my sworn ideological enemies are super bad in secret!’
“There’s no evidence!” cry the people who continuously reject the evidence presented.
Don’t you think? I mean off the top of your head name the three bits of evidence that actually convinced you china is committing genocide- you can even cheat and Google
The internment camps, the forcible sterilization, the suppression of Uyghur culture.
Didn’t even need to use google. Fuck’s sake.
Your three bits of evidence are all heresy based on unreliable reports, but sure let’s just believe anything that fits our worldview without question.
Even Mahmoud Abbas said china was treating Muslims fairly, as did Imran Khan as leader of Pakistan, Kazakhstan likewise agrees with China’s actions as do many other Islamic neighbour’s… People who get their news from the source because they’re connected to the victims involved through shared culture describe it as a fairly standardly upsetting conflict between terrorists and state actors but the further away you get and the closer to the anglosphere the more intense people’s stories become…
I only really realized how much the media pushes stories with no basis because I wanted to be able to demonstrate the stark facts when talking about it, it’s been the main criticism of Americans biggest enemy for decades but the CIA, media, and all the other apparatus of the machine haven’t been able to find anything beyond a few pictures of routine prisoner transport and baseless accusations from people already ideologically opposed to the state - I’m not even joking when I say Alex Jones has better evidence that FEMA and the EPA are building concentration camps and using chemical warfare against patriots, which we all understand to be manipulative lies.
For decades we’ve been hearing about this industrial genocide of Uyghur but their population continues to grow, average life expectancy has increased due to access ro modern medicine, everyone (including women, much to the upset of religious fundamentalists) now have access to education and social support… yes the men who wanted to keep women as property are angry but the average Uyghur lives a better life now than they did twenty years ago so if that’s the definition of genocide it’s kinda meaningless.
For decades we’ve been hearing about this industrial genocide of Uyghur but their population continues to grow,
Literally the same argument Israeli simps use to claim there’s no Palestinian genocide.
You can reject the evidence from multiple sources over the course of almost a decade now over and over again because you want to simp for fascists, but it doesn’t change facts.
The reality is you’re rejecting all the evidence against this because it would make your worldview much more difficult, you believe you know the truth and so reject any other argument out of hand. This is very common, Alex Jones fans believe they have evidence of a NWO conspiracy, your belief is more reasonable because it’s pushed by western media snd political establishments but it’s pretty much the same game.
Do you reject the evidence from multiple sources that lizard people rule the world? Of course you reject it because claims of evidence no matter how repeatedly they’re made add up tnothing if they’re all just feeding off their own fantasy.
Is china heavy handed? Yes. Do I think s lot of their actions in Xinjiang are immoral? Yes. Is there evidence of a genocide, no.
How far have you actually looked into the evidence beyond articles in outlets you wouldn’t trust taking about issues you actually have detailed knowledge of? The guardian has misrepresented every antiestablishment group they report on but you think they’ll be fair to the CCCP? And they’re one of fhe most sympathetic, in what world would the US state department say ‘actually our main enemy isn’t as bad as people say, really they’re fairly reasonable especially xomaoired to our own interactions with Islamic terrorists…’
But it’s also why they don’t really talk about it, they don’t want to get caught in lies - remember the US flexing on Russia with their super accurate intel? They’d love to do that to china and if there was good evidence to have they’d have it. This is why all the big claims are based on hearsay from unreliable sources or wild leaps of imagination based on insignificant pictures.
You’re sure there’s huge amounts of evidence but you can’t think of a single bit that has any substance - exactly like the conspiracy loons when they say ‘Google FEMA Cano death squads’ instead of pointing to their favorite smoking gun because they know you’ll just get lost in a sea of people promising theirs strong evidence but never actually getting round to showing it.
As for people using the same demographic argument for Isreal, Isreal isn’t building schools and providing healthcare the difference is pretty obvious when you actually compare them - but that doesn’t occur to you because you don’t actually know any details about the situation in China, which is weird considering how often you’ve read articles and memes taking about it… almost like they lack vital information because they only want to show one side…
Add Palestinians to that.
Which Fascists are oppressing them
Israel
israel is fascist? Seems weird for the US to be supporting them…
Why? The US is well on the road to Fascism.
under trump sure. But that’s only under trump.
The Democrats have been working furiously on becoming the 4th reich, purely out of triangulation
Fighting fascism with fascism to prevent fascism. It should be their new slogan
Well usa is known as the fascists of this century so…
i would say of the late 20th century, the 21st century is probably china, or perhaps russia. Considering they had an “ethnic cleansing” of their government. They seem like a pretty good bet.
China?? They haven’t invaded a country since 60 years ago. usa have invaded the whole Middle East during this century and currently fighting a proxy war in Europe
china doesnt need to invade another country to be all authoritarian over them. For one they have their own population to do that with. And secondly, they seem to be focusing much more on getting other countries to hold chinese debt, presumably in an effort to make them default such that they can cut really sleazy deals with them. Also china allies with north korea and russia, they have no need to directly invade a nation.
Also the proxy war in europe isn’t a bad thing, that’s a good thing, it’s effectively a proxy war between europe, the US, and russia. Who broke their own treaty with ukraine. And is also doing warcrimes all over ukraine, unlike ukraine.
Have you ever considered using some of the time you spend repeating stuff over and over on actually investigating whether there’s evidence behind your claims?
Last time I asked for a source regarding the Uighur stuff he just banned me lol. I guess it works on a lot of people to just apply social pressure on made up shit with zero concern about what’s true or not.
Aaaaaand here come .ml folks denying genocide
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with denying that something is happening when there’s no evidence of it happening. You can use whatever social pressure or rhetorical tricks you want to paint me as a bad person, and downvote me all you want. At the end of the day, none of that matters because there’s no evidence, so I’m right and you’re wrong, simple as. If you think it’s more virtuous to believe nonsense than to base your beliefs on what’s actually true, you do you I guess, but I want none of that.
https://bjwa.brown.edu/28-1/the-rise-of-global-islamophobia-and-the-uyghur-genocide/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol15/iss1/6/
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10281.pdf
https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c
I could provide 20 more sources, but you get the point. Unless you are able to disprove every single one, you are the one who is wrong.
And there is a difference you know, if I am wrong, there is no genocide happening. And boy I wish I was wrong. If you are wrong, you are a genocide denying piece of garbage.
If you are wrong, you are a genocide denying piece of garbage.
No, that’s not how this works. There is no moral fault is disbelieving a claim because you haven’t been presented with adequate evidence. You might as well try to tell me that I’m a bad person for not believing in God. “Genocide denial” is not an inherently bad thing, even if the genocide were real, provided that it has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Your claims do not get some special privilege to circumvent the proper process of investigation just because they are extreme or emotionally evocative. If anything, the fact that everyone on your side is so reliant on the emotional appeals and social pressure should be an additional reason to scrutinize your claims even harder.
The idea that you can just throw 20 sources at me and I’d have to disprove every single one is also incorrect, as that would be a gish gallop. If I told you there was definitive proof that the genocide was not happening in between the lines of James Joyce’s Ulysses, you would not be compelled to read the whole thing to tell me I’m wrong.
Now let's move on to your sources.
https://bjwa.brown.edu/28-1/the-rise-of-global-islamophobia-and-the-uyghur-genocide/
Rushan Abbas is a CIA agent who literally worked at Guantanamo Bay. She is not a credible source.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang
This article is as long as a book, as far as I read, I saw no mention of genocide and the majority of it seemed to be hearsay from one person. You’re going to have to cite anything relevant.
Extensively cites noted crackpot and CIA asset Adrian Zenz, as well as random hearsay.
The only thing this one says is that the US State Department called it a genocide.
No mention of genocide.
Oh hey, it’s our old buddy Adrian Zenz again.
Maybe I should’ve clarified. When I asked for evidence, I didn’t mean:
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Hearsay from random nobodies
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The CIA
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The US State department.
I meant things like what we’re seeing in Palestine. Or like the evidence for the Holocaust, or any other genocide that’s, you know, actually real.
But I’m highly skeptical that you read even a single one of your sources before linking them anyway, let alone actually investigating them.
Straight up denial of evidence is a certified tankie tactic
Denial of evidence
You mean thinking critically and doing due diligence into investigating sources as opposed to blindly accepting anything you’re told without question? Yes, that is a certified tankie tactic.
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“Biden is currently dropping bombs and Trump isn’t, therefore anyone desiring a Kamala victory is a fascist” --Linkerbaan unironically
Link or it didn’t happen.
Sorry, I meant a link to where they said anything remotely like what you claimed they said.
It’s very funny how reliable it is that when people shit talk about other users without providing a link, they are lying literally 100% of the time.
As I said, a link to anything remotely like what you accused them of saying.
Their argument in that one was that holding democrats accountable is necessary to get them to change their positions, which will in turn help them win.
Try again. Or just admit you made it up whole cloth, as y’all do.
“Cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds” and “Liberals are perfectly happy voting for Democrats despite the genocide” doesn’t say “Harris voters are fascists” to you?
Yeah but they didn’t say exactly what you said they said so neener neener you’re a weener
“Cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds” is a common expression. "Liberals are perfectly happy voting for Democrats despite the genocide” is just factually true. If that means the same thing as “Harris voters are fascists,” then, uh, if the shoe fits wear it I guess.
Not all Authoritarians are Fascists.
That said, I would agree that whomever supports Putin, supports Fascism - there is nothing at all Leftwing in present day Russia, quite the contrary.
China is more complicated.
Fascism = far RIGHT ideology; communism = far LEFT ideology
China isn’t more complicated
Fascism used State Capitalism. Political parties are corporations anyway
If someone questions their religion (like that mma guy who fought the larpers) then they lose their social credit…which leads to loss of income and property
I do think china is a capitalist hell hole that doesn’t even have universal healthcare.
But social credit thing is not real afaik. I personally asked several chinese people and they all laugh at it.
They of course can and will prosecute “enemies of the state”. But social credit is not the way they tend to do it.
Meanwhile the US literally have credit score or something like that, don’t they?
Yea the social score thing seems like a misunderstanding of Chinese culture.
Chinese culture (and other Asian cultures) have a history of shunning people who have committed ‘shameful’ acts out of their communities.
The MMA guy that the previous comment was talking about was shunned out of living a normal life in China for exposing the phony Kung Fu masters in China.
The Chinese government has experimented with different kinds of social score systems, though most didn’t stick. They do have a credit/banking score system just like we have in the US, too. Still, I think most of this blacklisting just comes from their culture, and not from the Chinese government enforcing social scores.
do think china is a capitalist hell hole that doesn’t even have universal healthcare.
Nazi Germany had healthcare…as far as fascist states go it has to be up there
Edit: Well mods deleted my response to the post below so I will just leave it with this
Wut?
Where are you getting your information from?because it’s all fake.
During the third Reich you needed to buy insurance or to pay a private doctor. Many industries had to provide health insurance to their workers like in the US, but many people were left uncovered and healthcare professionals did not work for the state, they were mostly self employed or employed by private hospitals.
There was not socialized healthcare like in most modern civilized countries.
I mean you can point out that you’re not a fan of Putin but if you’re for diplomatic solutions instead of total war you’re a fascist. No matter if you try to explain that you’re a pacifist and that war is not acceptable and arming for war just makes war that more likely. As soon as you mention NATO eastward expansion as a problematic policy you’re a tankie. Or if you mention that people saw this war coming before 2022 and it could have been stopped. Or if you point out that calling Russians “orks” is racist. Just massive downvotes and the zerg moves on.
There is zero difference between the MAGAts and the leftists in regards to how brainwashed they are. And no I’m not a centrist either.
The issue with bitching about “NATO expansionism” is that at the end of the day it’s still an alliance that countries ask to be members of due to concerns about being invaded or attacked.
countries ask to be members of
Countries like Russia in the 90s, which was denied for some reason despite the fact that their president was literally installed by the CIA.
China is more complicated
That’s because they found a way to voor communist thought to the most capitalist industry in the world.
Well, they managed to pull about a billion people out of poverty over the last 4 decades or so, which means that mainly they were following leftwing ideals.
(I come from a country which had actual Fascism until the 70s and what the Fascists did was the exact opposite of that: the vast majority of people were dirt poor and kept dirt poor whilst a tiny elite tightly interwined with the Fascist Government gorged themselves on the wealth of the country).
However, it’s been some time since China did that lifting of the masses out of poverty, and they’ve been shifting to Capitalism whilst keeping the Authorianism from their implementation of leftwing policies (they called it Communism, but they never really reached such utopical state, so I’m wary of calling that Communism).
Are they even left of center nowadays? I don’t know enough in detail how modern China operates to pass judgement on that - outside of China we mostly hear of what’s done in domains that reflect the part of their ideology that falls on the Libertarian-Authoritarian axis, not the stuff that falls on the Left-Right one.
I don’t think they’ve yet moved all the way to Fascism, though, even if they’ve kept the Authoritarianism going.
Well, they managed to pull about a billion people out of poverty over the last 4 decades or so, which means that mainly they were following leftwing ideals.
well i mean, in defense of this statement, mao was literally psychopathic. As far as i’ve read they basically dropped everything including food production to make a nuclear bomb. Coming from that to industrialization is only inevitably going to vastly increase your standard of living. We saw the same thing across the world, even in the soviet union.
also i definitely wouldn’t call china center of left, unless we’re specifically talking about economic policy, as china is extremely noteworthy for being pretty tyrannical in certain cases around certain things. the great firewall being a good example. Unless we’re going with the modern american conservative definition of left, in which case, yeah that would be left.
you are now banned from: worldnews@lemmy.ml; hexbear.net; lemmygrad.ml
Nothing of value was lost.
Those are all badges of honor. Of which I’ve only achieved one.
those are rookie numbers, you gotta get those numbers up man
Thankfully this instance is defederated from hex and grad. So there’s no way I can at this point LOL. Not that anyone really has to try. One only has to act rational around them and point out when they’re behaving irrationally.
Maybe this could help. It’s the evidence from the Uyghur Tribunal.
I predict this will anger people but while I think fascists and auth-left communities share significant commonalities it’s at least a little misleading to call them fascists.
I’m of two minds on the matter. On one hand, one can very seriously argue that fascism and authoritarian ‘left’ groups are distinct in their proclaimed thought processes. Fascists very much hearken to the idea of an eternal conflict and a single national leader, while authoritarian leftists, in theory, are seeking an actual end goal of a stable society without a strongman.
On the other hand, in practice, there’s very little difference not only in policy, but also little difference in justification by actual pracititioners. Tankies go all-in for the same cultural chauvinist and hegemonic arguments that fascists do, they just call it ‘anti-imperialism’ instead of ‘national vitality’ or whatever the newspeak neonazi euphemism of the day is. Tankies proclaim that they aren’t in it for eternal conflict, and then break out the death-cult-of-heroism eternal ultra-martyrdom common to fascists and religious fanatics anyway. Tankies talk a big game about making a united front, but then immediately shut down all opposition, no matter how minor the disagreement, as ‘reactionary’ and call for them to be shipped off to re-education camps.
Insofar as there is a difference, it’s like paint of chartruese and bile-green. Side by side you might be able to differentiate them, but seeing either one spilled onto a perfectly good table, you probably aren’t going to care all that much about the distinction; they’re both pretty vile, and both in nearly the exact same way. In that vein, I prefer to emphasize that tankies and fascists are really not that differently, fundamentally and practically, than to emphasize the minutiae of theory that differentiates them.
Fascists very much hearken to the idea of an eternal conflict and a single national leader, while authoritarian leftists, in theory, are seeking an actual end goal of a stable society without a strongman.
The idea of “class struggle” (being an eternal conflict) and proletarian dictatorship (afaik always with a single national leader) sounds pretty fascist based on this definition. Of course intentions matter, but I’d say end results matter a bit more.
Their approach to government is fairly similar, though fascism seems to be a bit more strictly totalitarian on average. They also focused their violence towards different groups which makes a difference, although the murder of dissidents is a prominent element of both.
However, they have quite different economic policies with fascists being generally pro-capitalism and tankies being anti-capitalism, at least to a degree.
But I mean I get it, it’s a meme. This kind of nuance doesn’t fit in 10 words or whatever.
I agree. I should also note that it is not useful to treat them as fascists. Right-wing and left-wing authoritarianism spring from different mindsets and combatting them requires different approaches.
That being said, there are intersections. The most notable are the nazbols, patsocs, and strasserites. It is absolutely appropriate to refer to such groups as red fascists.
Zizek said it quite eloquently: “[China] adopts the basic idea of fascism, which is conservative modernisation: ‘we need capitalist dynamics, but we need to control it, and to control it we turn to our own national tradition’. […] This is the problem with Chinese communism: there is a direct link with the fascist tradition.”
Fascism = far RIGHT wing ideology; communism = far LEFT wing ideology
They’re basically OPPOSITE ideologies lol
Russia was communist once and China pretends to still be that means I’m a bad leftist if I don’t send death threats to people who support Ukraine and Taiwan.
Actual thought process some people have listed above
The funny thing about that is that Russia was never communist. Though many don’t understand the difference between communism and Communism. The irony being that Communism was basically cosplay of communism. But never actually communism.
well yeah, because it was the soviet union that was communist.
The Soviet Union was a state. Therefore not stateless, therefore not communist. The Soviet Union had a separate political class. One that scapegoated, imprisoned, and even slaughtered any proletariat that dared criticize the vanguard party and it’s leaders. Therefore not classes, not communist.
The Soviet Union nominally implemented Communism. But communism and Communism aren’t the same thing. I could name my dog Communism. And my dog would be Communism. But not communism. The soviets cosplayed communism. But never were or will be communist.
I mean, there was a pretty solid chance of actual communism before the Bolshevik coup. I think that if the Soviets overthrew the provisional government we’d have a fully socialist government, which could have eventually became communist.
It was still not communist, but lets remember that it could have been before the party communists made their state capitalist government in the name of communism
I arrived at that conclusion by analyzing what ownership means. Ownership means that you either control something, or the person who controls it is accountable to you. In a state with an authoritarian dictator, such as Stalin, the dictator controls the means of production, if not directly, then through his subordinates, who are accountable to him. Therefore, in the soviet union, the workers didn’t control the means of production, Stalin did. Basically, the Soviet Union was the endstage of capitalism.
Yes, in a similar way, north Korea is closer to being a monarchie than anything else. Totalitarian monarchy.
Maybe “absolutist” would be a better term.
Adding to that, Russia was never communist or even socialist. Marx never intended ownership as a concept to be discarded, only that workers would always own what they needed to work.
